Iwona and I were somewhat off topic yesterday with our discussion of Christianity and other religions in a neighbouring thread.
This got me thinking that we do need some more opportunities to explore some aspects of these belief systems.

For many, probably most, people religion seriously colours our views on a vast range of topics. Undoubtedly this is also true of our perceptions of the supernatural - including ghosts and related phenomena. Even those who do not claim to follow any religion will have a world-view coloured by the culture within which they live and I think we would be hard pressed to name a single culture not influenced in some way, at some time, by faith in some kind of deity.

We have given the existance and operation of ghosts consideration from the point of view of science, but science has little to say on something that we have such trouble getting a physical hold on. Perhaps we can get a little more information by considering the matter using a different information gathering technique.

So, my question to you, my friends, is: What does your religion (or a religion you know about) say about ghosts?


Talk to your local priest, rabbi or shaman; read your holy scriptures. What do these sources say? How does your heart interpret these sources?

Does religion affect how we see ghosts? Does it affect how we react to them?

i'm glad YOU started this thread, GOATY!

In Poland those two worlds, spiritual and paranormal, always permeated each other.
In this case, we're much alike Spanish people, many of us claimed that Virgin Mary, Jesus or various saints and angels manifested themselves before their eyes...
of course i'm not amongst them, haha, i'm sane
Poles like to be very close to their holy patrons, we often carry portraits of them in the wallets, or wear pendants with their image on them

I wouldn't be surprised if i uncovered that 90% of ghost sightings have been interpreted by witnesses as a revelation of an angel or Satan
I say, what one believes in, strongly affects his perception of the world
For instance, if i witnessed the encounter of a presence that resembles Virgin Mary as we know her from the holy pictures,
i would rather say that it was the will of a ghostly presence to reveal itself in such form, and it wouldn't cause me convert into catholism,
simply because i'm not a christian believer
People tend to defend their beliefs regardless of the facts or evidence that's being adduced to them, and i'm sure nothing will ever change it

I think Christianity is a very "spiritual" religion, what i mean is that it has so many saints to believe in (apart from The Holy Trinity),
and the number of them increases every year, as more people are being canonized by the Pope
This kind of closeness between the living and the saints, who once were people like us, makes believers more susceptible to the "sightings" of many kinds
Majority of them surely is just a product of their vivid imagination, and the "revelations" that some claim to have encountered, don't differ from our will of interpreting physical phenomenons as ghostly encounters

(i'm sorry in advance for mistakes, if i made any)

I believe when people set out to learn how to Communiate with Souls beyond Death they should not be shocked if the Spirits of their Relatives or God, Jesus or anyone beyond the Veil of Death appears to them because this is what they wanted to happen.

When I first began attending a Spiritual Church and I received messages through Mediums from my Friends and Relatives in the Spirit World I was not surprised at all because we all believed once we died we would be alive in the Spirit World because most churches do teach us that jesus pomised us Everlasting Life and Jesus as we know claimed to be the Channel for God and the scribes who wrote the Bible talked to angels all the time.

After I learned how to communicate with those beyond the Veil of Death I just accepted it as normal that departed family members and others could appear to me and later when a white haired man appeared that told me he is God and said also that he is Lily who Wrote through Spiritual Writer Ruth Montgomery I had no problem with believing that.

Then one morning back in may of l986 when I awakened to see Jesus Walking towards my bed I just accepted it as normal that he is now a Guide who appears to me much like my realtives and others did, but when I began to tell my realtives and others this they would not believe that God or Jesus would appear to a regular person like me.

I said why not Jesus and the Scribes talked to God and the Angels and you pray to God to help you all the time, and so if you don't believe they can appear to us just like any other spirit why do you bother praying or go to church if you believe no one is going to hear you or answer you.

Some people have said to me the bible tells us we should not speak to the Dead because its Evil and I said well we surely can't believe that when Jesus and the Very Scribes who wrote that in the Bible spoke to those beyond the Veil of Death all the time.

And as we know Preachers and Priests all the time preach the Word of God and say they talk to him all the time so how can we figure all of these things out if no one believes anyone and they look on the apperance of God and jesus as so Spectacular that they make people saints who claim to see them?

I think all people who pray should expect to have God and jesus appear to them or at least give them a sign if they want us to go on believing they are alive in the heavens.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I expect quite a variety of ideas to appear here.

*Chupa hides beneath the blanket*

ter"
I learned how to communicate with those beyond the Veil of Death I just accepted it as normal that departed family members and others could appear to me and later when a white haired man appeared that told me he is God and said also that he is Lily who Wrote through Spiritual Writer Ruth "
nice work rosie...
methinks(sometimes0
Lily=God
lily of the lake?
or my very own "lily"?
looky here...









that be one very grey and grumpy cat-goddess....
White haired old man? =Saruman! gasp!
oh damnation! i promised not to do this anymore.....*strolls away, whistling " smoke on the water.."*

I go to an evangelical church. I think for myself. I believe in God and I believe in ghosts. Strange thing is, is that I have never seen either. It's a miracle I don't believe in Santa Clause!

What!!? You don't believe in Santa? And I thought you were a clever girl!

I don't either!

i've seen Santa a few times in supermarkets, so don't tell me he doesn't exist

And religion is like this.
We are children who believe in God because our parents say he is real.
He may exist and He may not, our basis of belief is grounded in the faith we have in our culture rather than faith in logical thought.

Being pagan myself, my religion does not really have an 'official position' on ghosts. The general consensus is that they do exist, but why they exist, what they are capable of and all that is mostly a matter of personal belief.
Me *personally* I think ghosts stick around for a number of reasons. To proctect family, because the don't realize they are dead, or just because they are pissed off at something. Any reason you can think of you can probably find a case to support it.
That, and I believe ghosts are only as 'good' or 'evil' as the people they were in life.
I also believe in non-human non-corporeal entities (try typing THAT three times fast) but that is a WHOLE different ball game.

there is no logic in any belief
science may kill sensibility, and religion may kill rationality,
and it takes a lot of wisdom to reconcile those two worlds, without doing much harm to any of them

intresting can of worms openned here...
but i dont see why "there is no logic in any belief"
I belive in the good and evil in humans from experiance...its belief based on logic...
could we put "Love" into the same basket?its not logical..or is it all the same?
Logic itself can be used and corrupted the same as religion.
arguements can be made in a sensible and rational way to change the minds and thoughts of others...but they dont nessaceraly need to actually be based in fact.
some religious belivers have had deep personal experiances that moved them in a way that changed their lives for the better..
and these people come from varied back grounds, including science...
I feel many comments on this thread are directed more at the fundamentalist type of thinking,which seems to have less to do with spirituality, and more with human hypocrisy,control and elitism. there are degrees of belief, i hope we can agree...
me thinks spirituality(called what you will, Jesus,Allah,budda,goddess etc,we humans lick to organise and lable dont we?)
is a real and important part of our Rational quest for understanding our place and role in the universe...humans are complex things, and fragile,unable to accept our lives, so we hunt for more.
I could go on...
as too the link between ghosts and religion, i think everything, at the end of the day, is somehow connected, we just have to learn to connect the dots.....
Or get on with our lives, and just enjoy the mysteries for what they are..
once you solve a puzzle, whats the joy left in it?some people are committed to taking all the poetry and art out of life i know...it would be a sad passionless planet if we all became too "rational" .
but i ramble....

Certainly Fordo, a religion needs self-consistancy, based on logic, to develop into something truly beneficial to society and individuals.
And thus I will be the first to admit that when I say something negative I have fundamentalism in my sights.

All things are open to corruption, yes - science as much as religion.

Personally I do not believe in good and evil; in my mind there is only health and sickness.

Sadly many don't have the wisdom to accept that religion and science are not really talking about the same issues most of the time. Explanations in religion are more based on morality, wheras science deals with physical effects. These two realms of though source information in very different ways, however, and thus each may sometimes shed a different light on the subject of interest. True science and true religion cannot truly contradict each other. Each has its own form of sensibility and rationality.

Non-human non-corporeal entities, would be hard for some to distinguish from ghosts I think.
If seen I think it might be hard to know which was which. Your background in Paganism allows you to recognise certain phenomena in a different light to many other people.

You say that ghosts are as good or bad as the person in life. It seems a logical assumption. I believe Rosemary wrote something similar somewhere a while back.

some times you are most eriudite and clear in your thinking, well expressed Oh educated one.
I take back all the nasty things i have said about you.(well, not all of them)

when i wrote "belief", i meant religion...yep, should have made myself clear...me bad...
in my opinion, believing in good and evil in people isn't based on logic, but on experience...
and love...since when love is logical? it even sounds boring, wouldn't you agree...?



the religious believers you're referring to, were wise enough to draw inspiration from both sipritual and scientific sources, in quite balanced proportions...
i don't think religion or science itself is enough for anybody...this can easily bring one to fundamentalism...which in turn i haven't noticed in this thread in its pure form



...and me senses a hidden irony somewhere here, haha



well...you just backed up my own opinion here

...........

I'm God?

apparently so....enjoy it whilst you can, oh great one...

Oh My Me....

Oh Me, what am I going to do?

What on my green earth are you doing?

Lily damnit!!

Holy Lily.

Myspace? you want my myspace?
Check me out.... in the bible!!!!

perhaps goathead can tell us the exact reference to find "lily" in the bible...

Would that be Lilith?

Nope, she's not mentioned specifically in the bible...

Ok, I guess you now know my secret. I never read it and never will. lol

I don't think I'll waste my time on that one, Fordo.

S'okay...just means you have a life.

Me, I try not to leave my nice little apartment with its alluring books.

hmmm, interesting...what kind of books are they?

you might just find lily in the apocalypse..

It's amazing how quickly these threads go off-topic ain't it?

very well thought out hairy-snout.
Just to differ, if you belive there is only health and sickness, would you mind arguing the case for "treatment" as opposed to the imprisonment and punishment of those who are found guilty of vile crimes?
so to follow the idea, those who murder and rape can be treated, brought back to health and released once they get better?
I unfortunately belive in good and evil, but then, i only need to look in the mirror to confirm my belief..
(oh, feel free to praise me for trying to steer this apple-cart of yours back on topic...)

Thank you Fordo for your valiant effort.

I would like to see murderers and the like 'cured', but sadly we do not know how.
It may not even be possible without fundamentally changing who that person is.
Nevertheless, I still see it as a mental sickness.

so then there is no free will? all our choices of action are determined by our health?
excellent, so for every hideous crime i commit, i'll have the "i'm sick" excuse to fall back on....(its true actually, i am sick...)
Actually, i belive every one is capable of committing crimes like murder, so forth, its just we choose not to, out of our goodness, or some its fear of consequence..
I once met a man who had murdered someone, he was normal, not in need of any cure..was just driven to make a bad choice....committed the crime, served his sentance,accepted the consequence of his actions.

Fordo, I don't mean to suggest that every 'bad' act is a symptom of a long-term illness.
(We are getting off-topic again).
Mental sickess does not preclude free will, I would suggest that it clouds or otherwise modifies judgements.
A sick person can still make choices, but they are not..... entirely acceptable to the majority. (Oh dear, you'll have a field-day with that, Fordo). I mean that 'good' decisions are likely to be better for the continuation of the species, 'bad' decisions may be less so.

back to the Topic! (i'll leave our discusion for when my head dont hurt so, oh brainy-goat.
Would a person who professes to be an atheist, for example, upon seeing a ghost/appirition, immediatly think"wow, i'm having a bad haulcination..must have eaten something" or would a very important part of all humans,(alledgedly) called "Instinct" kick in and provoke a response?
I guess its back to the "nature V Nurture" argument again...*sigh*
but in summary, i guess a pre-held belief in the supernatural, (religion) would make one more susectible to the experiance of phenomena, or perhaps just the ENTERPRETATION of the experiance.....

Interpretation of the experience, may not be entirely logical and conscious I think.
An athiest - despite his/her cherished ideas - may still unconsciously react to ideas that he/she has been exposed to as a member of a given society.

you guys are killing me...

Spiritualism, occultism and magic, as well as all religions and beliefs, have the same origin, right?
Magical practices, like interacting with deceased or gods, and belief in a spirit world, appeared in every single prehistoric tribe
Spiritual traditions kept fading away, due to transition of the lifestyle: first there were nomadic and agricultural civilizations,
keeping people close to the nature, and now there are mostly consumer societies,
and it may look like we have forgotten about our roots
yet the spiritual traditions persist to this day, it's only the character of spiritual leader that changed over the eras
Tribal elders and shamans evolved into priests, popes, imams etc.
And, on the other hand, we've got modern beliefs, such as Neopaganism (yep, i can hear the murmurs of discontent now), which tend to resume the ancient traditions
Taking all this into account, our personal beliefs strongly affect our interpretation of what we see, whether we like it or not,
and either it's a physical phenomenon, or a true ghostly experience, we always seem to choose a soft option and give up objectivity
I agree with YOU here, GOATY, majority of us is unconscious of how the environment impacts on us,
and 'free will" may turn out to be only a cliche,
so i assume we have no proof that the world around us is what it appears to be before our eyes, we may be blind and unaware of the fact

or maybe GM, and all this is just in your imagination, dear Iwona......your dreaming it all......mwahahaha....

question.. what is this guy on?.. and where can I get some?

well said fordo, the most "ghost-sensitive" people I've met (among families who I've questioned face to face) are religious people, mostly christians, even one family friend of my mother's told me how this one mother and their daughters stood in awe looking at an angel walking towards them and dressing them with white cloaks and then dissappeared as it appeared... lots of things I've heard from those christian communities.. things I experienced myself when I was one >.<

if it's only a dream...please kill me someone, so i could never wake up again

oh no the matrix theory, now that makes my head explode

angels and demons are the hackers and the one's the one that knows the program so well he could fly, ah such a great movie, too bad some suicided over it's theory

Books and movies do not cause suicide. They may only provide a handy scape-goat.

True Goatie.

...or a free man (books i mean)

It's obvious movies don't cause suicide as that's the whole point "suicide", a movie can't suicide a person lol, but a movie with a good theory could cause people to go insane enough to "suicide" , but, I haven't researched this "fact", I've only been told by many that people did suicide after watching it... same goes for hostal 2, my friend cari who saw it and bored her out said she saw news on how old people had heart attacks during that movie, oh dear..

A heart attack is hardly suicide - unless the point of watching the movie was to provoke the heart attack!

A person suicides due to depression or other mental illness.