Ok so we've discussed ghosts of people of all ages, and ghosts of animals as well. To suggest that ghosts even exist is to suggest that they've always existed, or at least have since people/animals have existed and ceased to exist. So where are these ancient ghosts? The ghosts of the neandertals or the Mayans or the Incas or the Ancient Egyptians? Do they continue to haunt today? Does time have an effect on them? If there was a residual haunting in Pompeii before it was turned into a ruin, does that haunting still occur there even with the city gone? People say they've seen ghosts of animals or pets...Has anyone ever seen a dinosaur ghost? "I swear I just felt a brontosaurus brush against my leg!".
New Orleans was reputed to have tons of haunted places..what's happened to those ghosts now?

If a tree falls down in the woods and no one is around to hear it- does it make a sound? maybe this same train of thought can be applied to ancient hauntings. If a area where a haunting took place is destroyed, and no one exists to tell the story of the haunting, is there still a haunting? Am I making sense here people? What's your thoughts?

I don't know... hmmm...
but, something to take into consederation (Which I saw on Ghost Hunters tonight)
is that ghosts can be attached to a certain object or person, and once said object (or person) is to move from the place that hauntings are reported...so is the ghost.
also you have to think about residual hauntings where the ghost does the same thing repeatedly and other ghosts like poltergists which seem to have intellegence.
Intresting subject Luna

Perhaps a certain level of intellect is required for the formation of ghosts.

Many creatures might be below this hypothetical limit.

As for time limits, it might depend on the ghosts capacity to draw on fresh energy to keep itself intact.
Perhaps this energy needs to be drawn from belief in its existance.

I believe spirits do move with the person they are attached to and I base that on the ones I am in communication with first came to me in 1985 when I lived in a house, then I moved from there through two different apartments and they went along, then I moved into this house 15 years ago and they came with me and are still here.

There are at least 8 permanent Ghosts or Spirits or whatever we want to call them, and there are Spirits who just drop in to give messages and then disappear.

That's an interesting theory. That "hypothetical limit" does make sense. The "belief energy" reminds me of the part in Peter Pan where the children had to clap their hands and believe to keep Tinkerbell from kicking the bucket. Maybe that's why some ghosts seem to make it a point to make themselves known, to gain more believers. That's going on the assumption that a ghost would need anything to sustain itself...that it would need to "feed" in a sense. That would give it a slight essence of mortality...that if it didn't get it's energy to sustain itself it...dies again? That would be a bit of a bummer I think.

What Lily and Rosemary mentioned about spirits being attached to people/things may be true to a certain extent as well. I have heard stories of people moving from one house into another and having the spirit that caused them to move in the first place, follow them to the new home. And if *shudder* e-bay is any example, people believe all kinds of objects are haunted.

So when the people they're attached to die, or the objects are destroyed, or the places are demolished, what then? Think they find new places/people/objects? Do they experience a second death of sorts? Considering the amount of people who have died throughout history, the amount of hauntings out there are pretty few if you really stop to consider.

Perhaps some spirits are nothing more (and nothing less) than belief.
By this I don't mean a figment of someone's imagination, but a real force capable of responding to believe and the living in general.

I have read various fantasy stories in which the existance of Gods has been dependent on their having believers.
The strength of the god is thus dependent on the number and devoutness of the believers.

i agree this may be a clue...hypothetical limit
following this idea, ghosts just like us, can "grow old", suffer lack of strenght, not be able to haunt any more?...hmmmm interesting

one thing is on my mind,
remember the Curse of Tutenhamon?
many people died, and all of them were in close contact with pharaoh's opened resting place, his catafalque

many said it's a curse which says: everyone who mutilates Tutenchamon's remains, will die in a short period of time
scientists have soon revealed the real reason of people's mass deaths, it was a bacteria (virus, fungus? cannot remember) that lasted for such a long time inside those ancient walls,
but see, people believe time has nothing in common with a haunting intensity

i personally believe souls are not that strong to last for so long,
but then again it's just my opinion

true, Goaty
as i wrote once:
God should be so thankful that we created him

The power of suggestion could have increased the likelihood of harm to those involved in digging up Tutenkamun's tomb.
I don't doubt the disease hypothesis in this case, but paranoia can also be a terrible weapon against those who are susceptible.

i even know someone here suffering from that kind of paranoia...
hope it won't kill her after all

I do not have paranoia, I am suffering from people refusing to believe the truth.

I believe in the case of the Haunted Tomb of the ancient god mentioned above and I never can remember how to spell his name, they say he was a very greedy man and had his treasures buried because he thought they could enter heaven with him and he claimed to have put a curse on those who dared violate his tomb.

The Virus may be true of course, but the mere mention of a curse could have struck such fear in those who violated the tomb that they frightened themselves in to a heart attack.

The truth is once the little man who put the curse on his tomb was in the Spirit World and realized he was alive, with all his memories and greed from Earth when he saw people entering his tomb he could have become so incensed that he could have attacked them and or possessed their bodies much as my three realtives and Dr. P. have done.

Sprits then and now so frigthten people that its possible it could frighten them into a heart attack.
I do not believe a spirit is capable of killing a human unless they can use fear but once the human looses their fear of the dead then frigtening them to deal will not happen.

One of the reasons I have been writing about my ordeal is because when this first happened I was so frightened that I went around carrying a bible and I would place it on a chair and sit on it thinking this would keep the spirits from entering my body but of course it didn't work.

Fear of the Dead is such a terrible thing that we close our minds to the truth and want to go to the funeral and show our respect then we want to put the bodies in the grave and walk away and think fondly of them up in heaven safely with God.

The truth is few Spirits hang around Earth but once in a while you do find a mean spiteful one who takes great pleasure in terrorizing humans and now that I have lost my fear of the four sitting inside my body I am trying to teach others how to lose their fright and live their lives the best they can in spite of the four spirits sitting right inside my body as I write.

Now I'm off to take a bath, have breakfast and go shopping and as I do that they will do everything they can to influence my choices adversely but thank God some of my Good Guides are going with me for Moral Support.

If this ever does happen to anyone reading this I hope you have better luck of finding someone to believe you and help with an Exorcism than I have.

Amen to that iwona.

Groan.

HA HA HA it's more funny each time i read it
this could work as a book for naughty children...
"be good or Rosemary with her four possessing spirits will come at night and feed you with her demonic multigrain bread!"

that was cruel...but i just couldn't resist
forgive me....

Ooooh Iwona, you gunna burn in Hell. He He.

You know, I too have thought about why no one ever claims to see a apparition of a cave man and such. I came to my own little conclusion and it would be that perhaps instances such as residual hauntings that the energy begins to wan as time goes on and becomes harder and harder to draw energy around it and so it eventually "burns out".
As far as if a certain place was haunted and it was destroyed and no one exists to tell the story of the haunting, is it still haunted...hmmm. Good question. I would have to say that it depends perhaps on the circumstances of the hauntings. Say if you rebuild there, does a haunting in some sort of fashion take place? I know with the Borley Rectory that it burned down and I read that there are residences built there (not sure if it is on the spot or around it though and that may make the difference) but the people have not experienced anything paranormal.

That could be possible. well...
Ghosts/spirits are just energy right?
Well maybe the energy used to fuel one spirit goes to another as time goes on.
Like in physics: Matter is never created nor destroyed.
Maybe that 18th century ghost is using the enery from the caveman ghost?
Maybe orbs are older ghosts?
hmmm?

I like this thread! Good topic Luna!

I have always wondered exactly the same thing! If we can see, supposedly ghosts of pets/animals/cats/dogs then why don't we see big old dinosaur ghosts stomping down the street?

Just a thought....

a dinosaur ghost?!
i DO want to see it!

Me too! But not alone. And from a safe distance. Now that I think of it though, I have heard of tribes that tell stories of creatures so big that they shake the rainforest and snap trees like twigs. They don't claim to know what does it because no one has the gonads to go chase down something big enough to do that. Soooo...lets say it's a dinosaur ghost just for fun.

There's been talk of ghosts being made of energy or needing energy and so on. So if they do need an energy source to exist, and eventually that source runs dry for whatever reason, what happens to them then? They fade into nothingness? Break on through to the other side? Maybe ghosts are just on another plane of existance, a purgatory on the journey to the afterlife? With all the power lines all over the planet, it doesn't seem like lack of energy sources would be much of a problem. I'd have to say something is definitely happening to them, or there'd be alot more of them. Even if only 1 in 100, or 1000 or even 10,000 people got *stuck* on this plane, or just decided to stay...you would think every house, every field, every corner of the globe would be haunted. We'd be overpopulated with ghosts. It may have something to do with belief, but every belief has to start from something.


Totally made up example: You're hiking out in a remote woods when you see a small child wandering around up ahead of you. You're pretty sure you're the only one out in these woods, so you yell out to the kid. The kid runs, you chase it, and soon you stumble upon a small graveyard. The stones are so old that there aren't any markings left on them, and the kid is nowhere to be found.


Ok, so has the ghost been in some sort of hibernation over the years waiting for someone to come so he could leech energy off of them? Has he been "surviving" off of animal energy up to this point? Isn't it possibly wasting this precious energy by using it to appear to someone? When the person who saw it (now a believer) goes home and confides this story in someone, is that belief going to reach across the miles to the ghost and sustain it?

Just throwing some things out there

"wasting precious energy" suggests that the ghost has some kind of control over its appearances. This may not be the case.
It's appearance may be triggered by the presence of the living visitor, (a living being gives it the energy it needs to manifest).

Fair enough What do you think is the reason that what triggers a ghost once, doesn't trigger it again next time? Or that it does, but just not for the same person?

This takes me back to the relation between ghosts and animals. If a living being - ANY living being - supplies the ghost with the energy that it needs...then a deer could trigger the manifestation of a ghost...or a bird...or...who knows. But then you've got all those housepets out there that stare/hiss/bark at "nothing", baffling their owners. Obviously no manifestion triggered there...except one only the animal seems to see. But this is all going off the theory that a ghost would need to sustain itself. That it has needs. Or at the very least, "triggers". Maybe if someone invented a visor of sorts that mimics the eyesight of a cat or dog, we'd be able to see all the old ghosts floating around out there. There's an invention out there that mimics a house fly's vision...so why not a dog or cats? Ok I got off topic there.

If ghosts are triggered by living visitors, then archaeologists should be triggering some as they delve into places unseen for centuries. If living energy is a trigger, then there should be more ghost sightings then what there are. IMHO anyways.

Maybe it depends on the openness and 'psychic strength' of the potential trigger's mind?

Maaaaaybe...but again, there's the "Person enters haunted place sees ghost, leaves, comes back on a different occasion, no ghost" scenerio.
Or even better, "Person works at a haunted place, has only a couple of experiences over a number of years" scenerio.

Same person should = same trigger.

This suggests, that more than one variable might be required for triggering.
(I know it sounds like I'm grasping at straws. We are working in the dark here.)

Trigger = person + ??? (weather?)

Maybe the current emotional state of the trigger person is important.
Ghosts may be seen only in very special emotional/physiological circumstances.

Whew that is stretching it, but you may be on to something. That actually reminds me of a doco on ghosts that I watched just the other night. One of the places they covered was the haunted Vaults of Edinburgh, Scotland. They say there's more than one ghost there, but one thing they mentioned was that one ghost in particular seems to target pregnant women.

Very interesting points you two made

one thing is on my mind though
the conclusion seems to be that ghost has no power itself to appear
...and each time there is a sighting, it means ghost adopted our energy (or let's say, was lucky enough to appear at the right moment, in the right place)
i must say i don't quite agree
presence of a man (a particular kind of person maybe? good point guys), weather conditions, power lines, appropriate place (cemeteries, old buildings):
all of this definitely has a strong influence on ghost's appearance

but i don't think their existence depends on these circumstances all the way
my opinion is that the strongest "trigger" is the place ghost's thoughts and emotions belong to.
in that case they can "live" there no matter if there is somebody alive to give additional energy

...but then again, what is the reason of posessions?
(just leave it )

I don't wish to suggest that all ghosts have no will. I just offer a possibility.

I seriously doubt possessions. Schizophenic delusions are a much simpler explanation.

You are wrong, hauntings and possessions are real and Schizophenia and Delusions have nothing to do with it.
Quite often Psychiatrists who don't know what they are dealing with may make those diagnosis but that doesn't mean they are right.
If Psychiatrists began to learn the truth about these things it would change the world of Medical Science.

Agreed!!!

Anyone here see "the exorcism of emily rose" ?

i didn't (G-M is going to make laugh of that)
is it about ancient ghost?

no,seriously, i know what this is about...must see it soon

In such a situation a physchiatrist should be seen.
If the psychiatrist can see no signs of mental illness or the appropriate medical treatment is to no avail - then seek exorcism.

Audrey Rose:
When you watch the show, think about the priest confining the woman to bed without food and water and thinking fasting would cause the exorcism to work.

The fact is when people tell possessed people to fast it causes their health to deteriorate and makes things worse than ever.

This is why the possessed in that case died and that is why the court stepped in.

People must become better informed about these things.

Another danger is Priests and others who say possessions are rare.

I believe that people can be possessed and never even know it unless the Spirit wants to make itself known, but if it chooses to it can lay dormant and just put bad thoughts and dreams into the person they are tormenting and they may believe the thoughts are theirs.

Take Andrea Yates for example the texas woman who drowned her five children because she said voices kept telling her that God wanted her to send the children to be with him.

That voice telling this to her could have been possessing spirits like my realtives and Dr. P. that I have been dealing with.

Even serial killers could be following the directions of benovelant spirits out to see what power they may have over humans.

I fail to see the 'benevolence' in murder, but perhaps the word 'malevolence' was intended.

At any rate, these comments belong in the 'Do you believe in spirit possession' thread.

LOL Me 2!!! Could you imagine??? But surely its possible if animals can be ghosts?

Me 3!

of course they can be! If us can, why not them?
we had a thread about it recently, Chase

Thanks Iwona I'm a little bit out of the loop right now and still trying to catch up! Bear with me

But back to ancient ghosts...

I have wondered why there is often a lack of ghost activity in sites like, as you mentioned, Pompeii and others like Stone Henge, The Pyramids, Olympus etc... Perhaps the ghosts there choose not to haunt the locations as, when we have mentioned in other threads, they have the ability to choose if they can/can't appear

..or, following the Stone Tape Theory, they just fade out like a voice on the old tape

You have a good idea going about this.
Could they possibly "learn" how to control the appearances over a period of time?
Rather than just a fade.

Lacking reliable communication with spirits (in my humble opinion), it is hard to determine whether spirits might be capable of learning and changing their behaviour based on that learning. Failing such communication, it would be necessary to study a haunting over a very extended time period. We'll need some very patient ghost-hunters (maybe generations of them) to answer this kind of question.

Maybe we don't need ghost hunters...just a family who's owned a house with activity in it over several generations. I'd think there'd be stories passed down...maybe some are more well documented than others. Would be interesting if someone fitting that description would post here

I have been writing here about my four ghosts who have been haunting me for a good long time, but in my case no one much believes my story.

its possible someone would have believed me if I called them ghosts and or apparations and orbs and ectoplasmic formations instead of by their names that I knew them by in this lifetime.

Although I am referring to them now as Evil Spirits because of their bad behavior they aren't much different now than they were when they walked the Earth, they just have different bodies now but still have the same, mean, suspicious controlling personalities they had when they walked the Earth.

They have told me Ghosts don't hang around in cemeteries and old buildings much but when they catch a glimpse of their relatives and others on Earth who want to go ghost hunting sometimes they tag along and try to give them a show to make believers out of them so once they get back to the house they will be more receptive to their existance and then perhaps they can talk to them once in a while and perhaps write through them and this is one of the ways they make life in the Spirit World a little more enjoyable because they say sometimes its quite boring just hanging out on a fluffy cloud or languishing in an old dark building or cemetery.

My Ghosts are ancient since George lived back about the time of Abraham Lincoln, and Eve passed over in the fourties and Carrie in the Mid Fifties and to many people that is ancient depending on your age.

Although I believe in Heaven and Hell like we are taught since Birth in more than 20 years I have not managed to learn much about Heaven and hell from the Guides or my Realtives and in fact most of the Spirits I am personally acquainted with hang around and watch television and give advice on almost everything that goes on in my life and in fact are very controlling.

Right on Rosemary, but in your case your spirits are possessing spirits. I was speaking along the lines of a haunting. For example, a house that has been in a family for multiple generation, where multiple people over the years have been witness to the same ghost. Judging from the different stories, alot of data could be collected about the same ghost from multiple sources who have had more than a brief visit within the ghosts enviroment. Hope I explained that correctly.

I'm not saying your ghosts aren't ancient though. Have you ever tried any genealogical studies on your ghosts? It might be interesting to put faces to them, if you could find old photographs and records on George, Eve, and Carrie

They don't sound ancient by the standards being discussed in this thread.

Agreed, but I didn't want to blow someone elses opinion out of the water. If Rosemary looks on them as ancient then I'm not gonna argue

The Spirits and I were having a little fun with the copy this morning so sorry if you didn't find it humorous.
As I said before I don't just have the possessing spirits I have said many times I am in communication with many spirits in the Spirit World.

I even said on more than one occassion that the Spirit of John and Robert F. Kennedy are here as Guides but of course they are not permitted to just be ordinary ghosts working from my small house here in the Midwest but they are.

They like to go shopping with me and one of the good things about them being invisible tomost people is they don't need Secret service now but can just go up and down the aisles of the supermarket and help me make food selections just like any old ordinary relatives.

Sometimes God goes along to help me try to frighten and or talk the spirits out of my body but they are afraid to venture out now so I am just using them as guinea pig teachers if thats what they choose to be.

I have learned many things from them since I have been working with them since the eighties.
For example did you know that JFK was not only a womanizer he was also an alcoholic back in those days and this is one of the reasons he took so many naps with hollywood starlets back then.

And Robert F. Kennedy although he was a father of many Children he was also a cross dressing bi-sexual behind the Scenes.

He was turned into what he became because of the Priests who molested him at the private catholic schools he was sent to as a child.

But don't get me wrong he also had many girl friends and boyfriends back then in the Swinging White House and many Hollywood notables were part of the White House Pool and so they just called themselves swingers and never got into the other things that have not come out of the closet in this day and age.

Behind the Scenes Robert as Attorney General and later as a U.S. Senator used cocaine and he said when he visited Jackie in New York when their society friends dropped over there was cocaine in candy dishes sitting about on Coffee Tables.

I said then no wonder JFK Jr. was so tolerant towards his friends who did cocaine he grew up with these things.

My Guides have told me its alright to write these kinds of things and we will just label it Tabloid Journalism.

Cool Rosemary, sorry for the miscommunication. Robert F. Kennedy never attended any catholic schools as a child though. That aside, I'm not sure how the whole JFK thing pertains to what we're talking about?