.

What a fantastic idea Fordo.... Im more then willing to help take on some of the work. A guideline would definatley weed out some of the less obvious fakes.

in the words of Dr Phil...LETS DOIT!

there's someone here at g-m that does it all the time fordo, we just don't pay attention to her, lol, you know who that is

Now now!

I concur thought Fordo, some scientific perameters I think is a great idea. But where to begin????

as I've said.. we don't need to ask ourselves on parameters.. you know who Really is good at this.. you can just ask her..

I have some ideas and I hope you don't mind me replying to this because I believe I may be you know who?

I know its hard to prove these things and believe me after visiting U-Tube and reading some of the psychic blasters who are taking on about every skeptic and every psychic they have ever heard of I believe we are dealing with things that need to be cleared up.

Some of the people blasting the various psychics are saying things like they should be hanged and dropped in sulfuric acid and all sorts of things and of course that is what happened to Psychics like Jesus, and Joan of Arc and the so called witches of Salem.

I personally believe the burden of proof should not be placed on the Psychic who knows how to communicate and knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can see and hear Spirits, I believe the Burden of proof should be placed on the ones who are calling the Psychics liars and scammers and dillussional and things like that, and the non-believers should be challenged to learn what they can about developing their own Psychic Abilities and this can be done by spending time meditating and it can take a while to do this because it involves dispiline and wanting to master this Gift and so you need to be devoted and sometimes be willing to spend several hours a day sitting quietly projecting thoughts into the Universe hoping some of the Spirits will connect with you and want to work with you, and I believe developing this gift is just like training for any career it takes learning and studying.

If there is a Spiritual Church in your area this is a good place to start because once you visit there and you begin receiving messages from your relatives and friends who have passed over as they are delivered through other mediums there you will begin to believe especially after they tell you personal things about your dearly departed that only you and they know and that is how I first got interested in going there.

The day my sister first asked me to go there I felt like most of you and I kept saying no but she wouldn't take no for an answer and when I first walked into the church I felt strange but once inside I realized it was just like most churches with a preacher and songs but here there was a medium to give messages.

One word of caution though, while they do believe in spirit communication and teach how to do it if you run into a problem with a mean spirit you are on your own with that because they like most believe only in Angels and Demons and refuse to believe the so called Demons can in many cases just be mean realtives and others in the Spirit World.

I believe when you delve into the Paranormal you have to know not only the joys of communication but you must also be forwarned of some of the bad things that can come of it.

Ok, i think the first thing i would like to clear up, is its all very simple, all i'm after, are some basic parameters and guidelines that we can use to "sort the chaff from the wheat" in a manner of speaking. I'm not at all concerned with belivers V unbelivers, etc, in fact, i think this is an idea that both sides of the skeptic /beliver arguement should be able to embrace, after all, doesnt a "fake" ghost picture, encounter, or dodgy spiritualist simply have a negative effect on the beliver and the skeptic alike? dont we all agree that some simple ground rule for investigation, would benefit us all? despite where our allegiances may be grounded?
perhaps to kick things off, we need to make a break down of the various types of phenomena, cetain classifications perhaps?
ie: visual anomaly
psychological anomaly
physical manifestation
"religous Experiance'
etc, etc.....(by the way, i just punched this out rather hastily, but you get my meaning, )
so does anyone have the time, to put down their ideas?
AND....(stern and that ) remember, the key to making this work, is of course to remain impartial, put personal belife aside for awhile, and see if we can progress beyond the usual judgements made from our own little corner view.....

yes rose that's what fordo meant, I mean, what we need rosemary is that in case a picture comes up, we can ask the one who took it, what he belives in, where he did it, why he took the pic at first, what he felt, what drugs is he taking, when does he feel angry sad happy, does he believe in ghosts ? that kind of stuff

well you are asking an age old question pretty much inquired since the dawn of man..except in earlier times we accepted alot less proof ... what does constitute absolute proof of life after death??
honestly in these times short of jesus coming to earth (75 percent of population would still have problem with that especially if he was'nt white) unfortunately we will not have PROOF until we have a mankind willing to accept the fact that we are not alone(humans have a real problem believing we are not alone in the universe therefore our"god" is not just ours" we will not evolve. speaking
from a 70's generation i see a real improvement on our next generation to be able to step away from all the hype the oldies impose on them and see the future d
\

Having clear cut guidelines would be pretty difficult for sure. If someone has faked something, they're going to tell us all the things they think we want to hear about it, to convince that it's real. If someone has something they think is real...well they're gonna say the same thing as the faker, except they'll be telling the truth. Maybe we just need some sort of virtual lie detector test.
Seriously though, in the end I think it comes down to personal opinion and beliefs. I know someone who says "photoshop" at every single ghost pic I show them. It wouldn't matter if I told them the picture taker was totally sober, doesn't smoke, had a recent passing...etc etc. They'll contest anything, that's just the type of person they are, and the type of personal belief system that they have. Some people see a Mayors face in this tree: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/06/07/face.tree.ap/index.html
Some people see Jesus. It's all a matter of perception. I have my own personal guidlines...for instance I don't believe in orbs...but with all the orb pics/video on the net, I'd say there's alot of people out there who do. That guideline wouldn't fly for them.
Anyways, that's just my opinion, if you don't agree...be gentle.

I'm not asking for proof, actually,

Sadly I must admit that Fordo is asking a perfectly valid question.

Firstly let me respond to the latest posts. We are not being asked to prove the validity of sightings.
We are being asked to show a modicum of common sense and actually think for five seconds before we say 'it's real' or 'photoshop'.

Glammy, be nice! Rosemary actually makes some interesting points. She points out that the burden of proof is put on the claimant or else when the reader does take on the burden of truth it this most often a negative response. The finding of 'proof' implies the need for something like the scientific method and this is what Fordo seems to be begging for. By it's nature proof can never be totally achieved. We can only find evidence which disproves or fails to disprove. Thus, the apparent negativeness of serious researchers.

Next, I would like to point out that the first respondants to Fordo were very keen to back up the concept of guidelines, but failed to follow through with anything useful.

Finally, I will attempt to respond to Fordo's original question. (ie: put this thread back on topic - not that it ever got onto the topic)

Questions to ask ourselves when confronted with a picture or story:

1. Does the story come from a 'reliable' source. Yes, I realise that defining this opens up a huge can of worms.

2. Do pictures show signs of tampering such as incosistancies in contrasts or pixellation in different parts of a picture.

3. What were the weather conditions? Could this affect perception?

4. Was the person subject to drugs or a medical condition that might lead to hallucinations?

5. Is the story consistant within itself? (ie: no contradictions appear when the story is retold)

6. Is the story a relelling of an existing myth?

7. What is the history of the site?

But I'm just a goat - I'm sure you lot can improve on this.

Good stuff, after the 70's people, at least in United States have grown out of religions of all kinds in manyways and I'm so glad it's now vanishing, we all must seek truth through experiments and experience, not through ancient rules :/

Science is a useful tool, but it is no replacement for religion,
The earliest scientists were often priests.

does anyone have any idea what this topic was about?

In my posts about my Psychic Experiences I personally have not advocated growing out of Religion, and in fact people believe many things.

In my communication with the Spirit World I have sought to prove Life after Death, and creation and Evolution and tried to incourage people to develop their own Psychic Gift which I believe we all have and learn first hand like I have the good and the Evil's that lurks not only in the World Beyond but how it influenes us in our everyday life whether we believe in Life after Death or not.

Whether we believe in Life beyond Earth or not its still a reality but as yet an unproven reality unless you experience it yourselves and only then can you know what I and other Communicators know which seems so hard for most people on Earth to accept.

Whether we believe it or not, and whether we have experienced it or not, it is still there and only those who can see and hear spirits after developing their Psychic Gift can know what really lies beyond and that is why I personally have suggested that those who want proof should learn everything they can about how others do this and if they so choose then you can let it be known to Spirits in the After Life that you are interested in doing Research and help to prove these things.

Now while I don't want to ever discourage people from believieving in a Higher Power because I know personally one exists and I know he has great powers, and can look into the past and the future hundreds of years and he can Predict death even before it comes and he has given me the gift to see peoples deaths long before they happen and if those deaths are to be from Medical causes or accidents sometimes by taking swift action those predicted to die can save themselves.

I am not always pleased with the actions of the Man who has appeared to me as God and we have a lot of discussions and hopefully one day he will help me solve some of the problems that I feel he and his angels brought into my life by tapping me as a Channel for Spirit but in the meantime I can't do anything to solve those problems and so i guess for now I just need to keep writing about what I have learned from him and the others.

I have come to realize while the bible is very inspiriational to me and others I have a few problems with it as it pertains to my own life and I have discussed this with the Guides, and now I have come to realize the Scribes who wrote the bible were Psychic Channells for Spirit just as I and many Psychics are and they personally put their own spin on much of the information they got from the Powers that be in the Spirit World.

I say keep the bible and religion because I believe the world would be a far worse place without it, but I don't believe that God meant for the Bible to continue to cause such problems in the Middle East down through the ages simply because back then he told Jesus to go fourth and save Isrial.

I believe those statements have caused Isrial and Palestine to fight down through the ages and believe they are the chosen ones and they even pray and thank God for helping them kill their enemies when we all Know that God does not pick up guns and kill people and he does not like war and he surely does not like these Killers breaking on of his commandmants which says:

"Thou Shalt Not Kill".
Speaking of Killing I have been following the case of the Missing Pregnant woman in Ohio and know who killed her and why but I can't reveal that at this time, because I have sent the Information to authorities and now I don't want to do anything to jeopardize the case.

I'm with GreyGoat on this...

I think he's given us a good foundation to start our thought process regarding this rather unfathomable subject.

Anyone who preached the supposed "truth" was considered a priest in the old ages.

or a crackpot.

Can we get back on topic now?

you actually have to ask for permission? lol, okay, you may get back on topic =D

PS - we were already on topic, I have no idea why you just asked that, but if you consider what you said was off topic, then try not to do it again lol

on topic, how amusing... anyone?

While were at it what about other questions such as

-Has the person suffered any sort ot head trauma....ever?
-Has any and all outside sources of energy been accounted for? I ask this because I watched a soda can fly across a table and roll across the floor of a home on it's own. Everyone present thought it was a poltergiest, but you go outside and see powerlines above the building or home. Magnetic lines of flux (AC Current) or magnetic fields and anomalies in the earth itself. Sadly not even an EMF can't decipher between a spirit and a toaster oven. Pictures can be faked... You just have to know the right people and have unadulterated proof in front of you before anyone can believe 100%. Thats why we have this forum, so we can judge for ourselves and hopefully pick out the people who are known for BS, and examine the ones for ourselves that we can't debunk. The only line that needs to be drawn here is - are you here to believe or are you here to try and prove people wrong?

this is really interesting as far as i know most priests were only interested in preaching their own beliefs and anyone else was a heretic as a matter of fact da vinci was prosecuted by the catholics and the list goes on to salem and the middle east at this time....as far as proving life after death houdini was trying promised to contact wife...i wish there was a way ...lost a 18 yr daughter to suicide 3 yrs ago and can't seem to contact her...i sincerely hope there is an afterlife and have had some confirmation of it but unless you have a computer readout or gene cell proving it i don't think you'll convince the general public

It's true that heresy has nothing to do with good and evil.
It's all a matter of what's in vogue.
Maybe we should have a heresy thread?

what ?

Do you have dreams about your daughter?

Do you find yourself thinking about her and feel sad, or think about a particular evident in your lives together?

Yes I know we do think about those who have passed but as a Psychic who is aware of my Relatives and Guides around me quite often we reminise and discuss things from the past and when this happens I can hear them talking and know they are here but sometimes it begins when they appear and just pop ideas into my head to show me how other spirits communicate with humans.

If there are things you wish you had said to her before she left, you might want to take a writing pad and write all those thoughts down because she can read copy and in the future she might like to come in and speak to you.

She might not know how you feel about what she did or whether you forgive her and you can write your feelings down on paper and let her know and it no doubt will also make you feel better.

After that she may begin appearing to you in Dreams and tell you things and after that she might just appear for a visit.

I believe if more people knew the Reality of the After Life they would not commit suicide.

When people commit suicide they believe they will leave all their problems behind but when they reach the Spirit World they will know this is not true, they will then know they are still alive but now they are looking back at earth with some regrets now knowing that they are still quite aware of Earth and what goes on there.

When people die from all sorts of things they suddenly find themselves in the Spirit World with all their intelligence and memories both good and bad and they still have to deal with these things.

I believe if I tell others what I know about the Spirit World I can prevent suicide by telling them what its like there and then perhaps they will seek help here and decide to remain here as long as they are supposed to.

I am not writing this to cause you unhappiness but I believe people should know that you don't just die and suddenly find yourself in Paradise like some of us believe.

I never want to write anything to discredit the bible, but I believe we all need to think about the fact that the scribes who wrote the Bible had never personally experienced death and were just learning from those they communicated with beyond the Veil of Death.

I believe the Scribes who wrote the bible were prolific writers with great talent and the Bible is very Inspiring but I have learned some things after 20 years of Communicating with the Spirit World which has caused me not to believe everything I read whether its in the Bible or any other book of Science Fiction.

Now on the other hand if the men who tells me they are God and Jesus comes in and does some of the things he promised me he would do when he appeared to me back in l986 perhaps he and I can work out a few of the problems we are having as we discuss the bible on a Daily Basis.
The Scribes who wrote the Bible have their truths after Communicating with the Spirit World and I have my own Experiences that I have learned and endured during the 20 years I have been channelling for Spirit since the Guides and some of my Realtives first appeared to me at the Spiritual Church back in l985.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!

Fordo it's all gone pear-shaped!

After I made my last post to this thread yesterday Jesus appeared to me wearing a crown of thorns.

oh really? what'd he say? end of the world is coming? =D

Lets keep this on topic please, the topic being Burden of Proof - 'Does anyone have any surgestions or ideas for some basic guidelines to establishing the validity of a paranormal experience?'

Gigan

thankyou, Gigan-sama, listen people....listen.....shhhh....its an independant thought crossing through your mind....shhhh....listen....

and would someone please tell jesus to leave me the hell alone/ right?
back on topic please...

He appeared by my couch in a crown of thorns and indicated that I should rest more and spend less time fighting with the Evil Spirits and trying to convince others they are real, he said others will learn these things in due time, just as I did.

He said sometimes people just don't believe in these things and reminds me of how difficult a time he had in convincing others that he was channelling for God, and he said some people will never learn until they die and their Spirit ascends to the Spirit World and they realize they are alive and they can see and feel and remember all the things from their life on Earth.

Jesus tells me when he reached the Spirit World and looked back at his body nailed to the Cross and saw the things that happened to it it made him very unhappy for a long time in the Spirit World.

He and I talk quite often and we discuss the fact that he and the scribes were psychic Channells much like the rest of the Psychic Mediums and we believe whatever we are told by the Guides but when we get to the after Life we must take stock of everything we were told and compare it with what we find there then we will be truly enlightened.

Jesus is a very nice man in the Spirit World and you should pray and try talking to him yourself sometime and then you will learn how hard it is to convince others that Jesus appears and talks just like all the other Guides.

He big shot Jesus hears everything you and anyone on Earth says, so why don't you close your eyes and point your brain towards heaven and tell him yourself.

Be nice guys! Poor rosemary!

Allow me:

JC, Please keep the subject ON TOPIC please!

Soooo...this probably wouldn't be a good time to suggest my "WWJD" guideline...

ROFL GIGAN! AAAAAAAAAAAAH *LAUGHS CRAZILY* FUNNIEST THING I'VE SEEN HERE AT G-M!!!!!! AAAAAAH!!

Jesus is welcome to make a suggestion, we're not racist.
Someone has to.

OK, here's a contribution:
Ask yourself if you have a particular motive for believing something is true or not.

I know to some to believe that Jesus is alive in the Spirit World just as all Spirits are and that he can hear us and see us and even appear to us is hard to believe because as we know the Miracle of Fatima and things like that are biggies in the World.

The truth is that Jesus and God can appear to us as any spirit can and they are in the Same Spirit World as our mothers, and fathers and the next door neighbors and everyone
.
Some people die peaceful deaths and they are relieved to leave their painfilled diseased bodies on earth and go to the Spirit World and realize they are alive there.

Some people die horrendous deaths and when their spirits pop out of their bodies and they look down at their bruised and beaten bodies on Earth and see Killers walk away and go on with their lives and get away with murders and hit and runs and things you can see the Spirit may not be happy and may want to hang around and seek vengance.

Now as far as Jesus goes he was a mere mortal when he walked the Earth.
He was a living breathing psychic, and a preacher and a healer and I believe all that but he was also a man that few believed and he was treated terribly for telling the same kinds of stories that I am telling right now, yet the ones disbelieving and naysaying and poking fun at a psychic like me who is here to tell about my own Psychic experiences and asking those non believers to give me the benefit of the Doubt and try to gather your own Psychic Information to prove or disprove what I and other Psychic Channellers are saying.

I am telling my story just as Jesus and the Scribes in the Bible did and I am dealing with Evil Demons just as the Bible says, but I have now Learned that Demons are just Evil Spirits who used to walk the Earth just as I and others do and the Demon Kicks in when they find themselves in the Spirit World unhapy and angry and sometimes they turn into raging demons trying to cause people to believe that they are alive and that they aren't going quietly.

If you are not ready in your Psychic Development to accept the possibility that what I write is true, then perhaps you are not yet ready to delve into the Mysteries beyond Earth because sometimes when you are unprepared you can learn as I did.

I personally have all the proof I need and I am writing to tell others you need to be prepared for what lies ahead both good and bad when you cross the Threshold to the Unknown.

and we all know what happened to jesus now dont we????
damn isnt it?

What?

Well, I am glad you do have all the proof you need, Rosemary, but you are now telling us that your proof is based on your views of JC and the bible. The purpose of this thread (again) is:

1. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas for some basic guidelines to establishing the validity of a paranormal experiance?
2. does any one have a "Measure" so to speak for testing a experiance or phenomena? (without bringing religious or personal bias in to it)
3. basic guide lines for the serious investigation of occurances.
4. a clear set of "dismissives"

Not everyone is 'psychic', so you will have to just deal with believers and naysayers alike. Thats the choice you make when you go down the path of the psychic. Being psychic doesn't also necessarily prove anything either, as it could be just another natural state of mind we know little about. But anyway, my point is that this keeps going off topic, and I shall be watching this thread very closely.

Gigan

perhaps let us begin with the area of "environment" and environmental causes/factors that need to be looked at..

My proof is not based on the bible at all, but based on the experiences I have had since l985 when this all began.

I have learned spectacular information from the Akaskic Records and Universal Mind in the Universe.

I have communicated with spirits who have given me wonderful looks into the future and are even able to predict deaths as far as several years into the future.

I have however began to disect the bible and what it says and now I believe I should let the world keep the bible as they choose to but I personally am going more on what I personally believe after my own experiences.

The Bible was written by Scribes and preachers and Psychics who got their information from the Spirit World just as I am doing and to me the Information I have gathered updates the Bible, at least in my own life and my own beliefs.

Note: I wrote a lot more here with the help of someone in the Spirit World but when I got ready to post it a lot of the copy I had just typed was deleted by a Higher Power in the Universe and this happens quite often when I and some of the others get a little carried away while doing automatic writing.

OK Fordo,

How broad should we consider this 'environment'? Is it merely the physical environment of location or shall we include meterological and biological factors?

The lot, i'm guessing, to leave some out would be remiss, and leave even more open for the"but what ifs"
i guess environment needs to have a broad scope and range,,,,but surely we could condense it abit, for the sake of practicality.

oh, sorry grey goat, i forgot in that reply to say something insulting about you....stinky brute.
should we list our environmental factors?rather than just ruminate over the concept?